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    ting74, Sunday, 27th of August 2006, 18:00 UTC (20:00 CEST)[edit]

    See ting-wiki for more about tings.


    We are meeting half an hour before a ting on irc, server freenode, channel #onebigsoup.


    We use Gobby as a collaborative editor. Use v0.3.x only please - older (and newer) versions are incompatile and will likely ruin the ting.

    TheSheep provides a gobby 0.3.x standalone server.

    Adress is


    port 6522 (default).

    Check irc.freenode #onebigsoup when there are problems to log in.


    teamspeak-server is not active for today's ting, sry

    We use teamspeak for VoIP. You find the teamspeak login data on the gobby page ting73_talk or ask on gobby or in irc.freenode #onebigsoup. teamspeak port is 8767 (default). Use quick connect to enter the server adress and join in. Configure your teamspeak to push-to-talk, please.

    Joining the ting using gobby only is surely welcome.

    second life[edit]

    We tried to meet on second-life along with the ting. Add your second life name to the participants list, if you have one, please.

    We chose a hobo hangout for tinging in second life. secondlife://caletta/113/221/26 are the coordinates. Try to get there or tell us your name in second life (on irc or gobby) so we can teleport you.

    topic proposals[edit]

    • tings are open. so come up with a topic - you will realize pretty soon if someone's interested in it
    • add topic, we're not against them

    some recommendations for ting[edit]

    Please save the ting every few minutes on your hard-disk. In case gobby crashes (it does so sometimes) or in case somebody deletes all text we likely have a version to retrieve the ting without loosing too much of it. So save.

    In case gobby crashes you have to relog in using a different name a n d a different color. You can not relog in using your former name o r color.

    • We start each contribution on tings with a sign: - this is because the colors get lost when exporting the ting to a wiki-page and not signing you can't tell anymore who wrote what on the wiki-page.
    • Export is some hours (or the next morning) after a ting is over. Remove what you do not want to be globally public before leaving a ting.
    • A ting might take 20 minutes or many hours until deep at night - in Europe at least ;).
    • Tings are set up for 18:00 UTC, and - like all good jam-session - sometimes don't get started but some hours later. So stay loged.

    Also open the tingn_document page, please. It is for life-summarizing the ting. Copy results or precious passages over to it. Ting_talk might get pretty long and chaotic after some busy ting-hours. It's nice to have the contents already condensed when copying over the ting to ting-wiki. We actually copy the document on the article page and the talk on the discussion page.

    The chat in the chat-window (below, in gobby) is translucent and will not be copied. It should be directly connected to a real irc channel (or peekko), freenode #ting for example, but it is not yet. Hack that, please.

    today's tingers[edit]

    (sign: name, location, second-life identity, personal web-site)

    • ma: Mattis Manzel, Venice, sl: Mattis Voltaire, Mattis-Manzel-wiki
    • sh: Radomir Dopieralski, Poznań

    maybe participates, dunno yet[edit]

    • add

    collab-editor contents copied in[edit]

    live summarize the ting and copy over results here.

    • Problems with the sobby server
    • There is lots of work needed to translate wiki-related stuff
    • First tests with Gobby 0.4




    • ma: Mattis Manzel, Venice/Italy,
    • sh: Radomir Dopieralski, Poznań/Poland

    ma: Hi, journalist watching!

    sh: some troubles with the server, it's weird :(

    I cleaned the old ting, maybe there is a limit on the size of the session.

    Just found this:


    ma: just explained to the journalist, she left now.

    sh: say, can you translate this to english?

    Mehrsprachige Seiten haben eine Arbeitssprache. Die Arbeitssprache ist die 
    Sprache, die auf einer Seite am häufigsten und am effektivsten benutzt 
    wird, um an ihrem Inhalt zu arbeiten.
    Multilingual pages have a working-language. The working-language is the 
    language used the most often and most effectively to work on its contents.
    Sound like bullshit from me. Where is it from?

    sh: http://www.communitywiki.org/en/WorkingLanguage

    ma: quite a while ago with the multilingual experiment. alex wasn't too keen on it. Luigi and xtof and sylvie translated a lot.

    ma: What I meant was keeping the working language dynamic. If a page is mostly worked on in English and a hoard of Russians comes and improves it in Russian the working language changes. Might happen, I mean.

    sh: I can see why :) I see. But it's lots of meta-information to track on such a translated page -- the language given fragment is in, the up-to-dateness of it, the working language, etc. -- it's easier to keep track of when you have separate pages for separate language versions, I think.

    ma: easier to track maybe. But multilingual is more sexy. Imagine a multilingual wikipedia. With filters to choose the languages you want to see. I even started to copy an article in several languages on community-wiki to show how it would look like. Didn't get far. Too many ideas. ;)

    sh: It's already like this -- you have "this page in different languages" SisterWiki links.

    ma: Don't know that, gotta look. Maybe: but not nicely sorted pragraph by paragraph

    sh: No, page-based.

    ma: for learning and for comparing paragraph by paragraph is good. For translating, edit mode, sentence by sentences is optimal.

    sh: paragraph-by-paragraph translations are braindamaged. Translator just doesn't have enough freedom to translate the text correctly, without just making a "direct translation", only meaningful for those who know the language (and culture) translated from already. You just need totally different wording and sometimes even totally different order of presenting the ideas. In some languages/cultures you need to add whole paragraphs explaining some terms. In others you can safely skip whole paragraphs.

    ma: possible. I didn't mean to put all data into one page, always to be transfered entirely. Packing it together from different sources is ok.

    sh: Maybe it doesn't show with English and German so much, but it does with English and Polish. And I bet it's even worse in English and Chinese.

    I find the GetText-style, line-by-line translating very hard, personally. Even when I do have the context available.

    ma: I'm not too expierienced with translating, actually. Maybe there are better ways. Best would be show me Danish and German, as I'm learning Danish or as I'm interested what the Danish specialist write and I can swap between paragraph-by-paragraph and sentence-by-sentence.

    sh: We won't know if we don't experiment :) http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/DanishTranslation

    ma: man, is there much work to be done in this world! It's such an unbearable infinite thought, it' impossible without relaying on stigmergy, on the deep believe in "getting the other ants roll".

    sh: fortunatlely there are many people to do it :) We just have to tell^H^H^H^Hshow them how.

    ma: yes. It makes me enter a certain aggression to bump into communities. Doesn't feel that good in the first place. I just have it these days writing about the new center-wikis on pretty many wiki-hives. Many run fora, which is propperly weird. But people say "interesting idea", it's like they never thought about it before. Using wiki for everything.

    sh: I'm not sure about all that writing. I mean, the best way to make people create wikis easily is to give them straightforward links, without forcing them to reading. Fora give you the feel of power over your community :). There is forum-software that doesn't allow for that, and it's not popular, for example http://wakaba.c3.cx/shii/shiichan

    ma: that's it - feel of power and feel of a powerful ruler.

    sh: it gets saved every 60 seconds on the server. That's why it's not lost yet after all those crashes.

    ma: ok. Forgot these news:) Nice. Unpanic!

    sh: I removed the old ting, thinking it might have been causing the crashes, but no. It's not it. I have it saved. It seems that sobby has problems if there are more than two documents created by the same user in a row :(

    ma: sounds possible. I had problems like that. Keep examinating! And give the gobby folks a ticket on their trac - they love that.

    sh: they have it already fixed in 0.4 probably. Bug reports from old versions are pretty useless, usually.

    ma: k.

    sh: maybe we could try 0.4 some day. I think mutante just tried to connect with 0.4, he asked about that on #onebigsoup

    ma: sure. I just need a repository to install it.

    sh: Why would you need a repository?

    ma: To install it. A repository added to my apt source.list or whatever it is called :P

    sh: ah, so you want a ready, compiled version :) I think I can make you a .deb

    From their wiki:

    Ubuntu Dapper Drake: Gobby 0.4 is available on our own repository. To activate
    it add:
     deb http://pkern.debian.net/debian dapper obby 
    to your /etc/apt/sources.list and run apt-get update. Afterwards you can 
    install Gobby with  apt-get install gobby.

    ma: thanks. Added but public key missing.

    sh: you can connect to the old address with it: c141-46.icpnet.pl The missing key means you won't be able to transfer the package in a 100% secure way. That's all. They probably didn't generate a key at all.

    ma allright. Updating in this very minute, fun to do it while writing. I wonder if something crashes?

    sh: No, the running application has everything it needs already loaded, so changes on the disk won't affect it. At least in theory ;)

    ma: apt is sheer magic. Coded love.

    sh: heh, try this command: apt-get moo

    ma: yo! Installed, shall I reconnect now? The info says 0.3.0 still.

    sh: no, just run a second one, and connect to my desktop.

    ma: ok. ... Protocol version mismatch on ting.sheep.art.pl:6522

    sh: c141-46.icpnet.pl:6522

    ma: thinking. maybe default wiki-node templates for different wiki-engines for people to copy over and fill in would make sense?

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