ting66, Sunday, 25th of June 2006, 18:00 UTC (20:00 CEST)
See ting-wiki for more about tings.
We are meeting half an hour before a ting on irc, server freenode, channel #onebigsoup.
We use Gobby as a collaborative editor Use v0.3.0 only please - older (and newer) versions are incompatile and will likely ruin the ting.
The collab-editor-server is kathigraben.mine.nu, port 6522 (default).
We use teamspeak for VoIP. You find the teamspeak login data on the gobby page ting65_talk or ask in irc.freenode #onebigsoup. teamspeak port is 8767 (default). Use quick connect to enter the server adress and join in. Configure your team speak to push-to-talk, please.
Joining the ting on gobby only is surely welcome.
- tings are open. so come up with a topic - you will realize pretty soon if someone's interested in it
- add topic, we're not against them
(sign: name, location, personal web-site)
- ma: Mattis Manzel, Berlin, Mattis-Manzel-wiki
- sh: TheSheep
maybe participates, dunno yet
Please save the ting every few minutes on your hard-disk. In case gobby crashes (it does so sometimes) or in case somebody deletes all text we likely have a version to retrieve the ting without loosing too much of it. So save it.
In case gobby crashes you have to relog in using a different name a n d a different color. You can not relog in using your former name o r color.
- We start each contribution on tings with a sign: - this is because the colors get lost when exporting the ting to a wiki-page and not signing you can't tel anymor who wrote what on the wiki-page.
- Export is some hours (or the next morning) after a ting is over. Remove what you do not want to be globally public before leaving a ting.
- A ting might take 20 minutes or many hours until deep at night - in Europe at least ;).
- Tings are set up for 18:00 UTC, and - like all good jam-session - sometimes don't get started but some hours later. So stay loged.
Also open the tingn_document page, please. It is for life-summarizing the ting. Copy results or precious passages over to it. Ting_talk might get pretty long and chaotic after some busy ting-hours. It's nice to have the contents already condensed when copying over the ting to ting-wiki. We actually copy the document on the article page and the talk on the discusion page.
The chat in the chat-window below (in gobby) is translucent and will not be copied. It should be directly connected to a real irc channel (or peekko), freenode #ting for example, but it is not yet. Hack that, please.
collab-editor contents copied in
ma: lemme see you color
sh: it's pink :)
Somebody claim again VoIP weren't good for anything. ;)
sh: well, I don't like to speak -- you don't have time to think about what you want to say.
ma: np. Some musician rarely talk as well.
sh: maybe it's a question of social skills too -- text isolates you pretty well. Geeks often *love* plaintext :) And geeks are often anti-social in a way...
There should be an "always leave one empty line at the end" option in gobby, by the way ;)
The problem I had with NAT was trivial -- you can access your own box via external ip, and I was testing it this way.
ma: Nice it runs. Thx. I take hours to do such and in hours I start three new wiki-centers. That's more effective. But, yes, I want to learn.
sh: It's just a question of automating things and getting the templates right, I guess. Knowing where to look for errors and how to test helps too.
ma: What did we do? We said hello on the chat below and immediately moved up. This part here is going to be exported to wiki. The text below in the chat is translucent. "Irrefactorable". I like that. On the wikipedia page for gobby it says the chat is for the conversation. Not true simply.
sh: It's kind of like a great concert, and the technicians and stuff talk to each other using walkie talkies -- it's not for the public ;)
Wonder if you could use Inkscape's 'Inkboard' or Coccinella's 'Whiteboard' to enchance tings even more. But more software is more things that can break. Still, drawing collaboratively to explain ideas is the thing for me.
ma: drawing collectively integrated with gobby would be awful. We have to go for that. Lion'd love it!. Kandinski too.
I haven't tried on this svg stuff. I'd love to, but too much to learn - and mostly to do - at the moment.
sh: I think Coccinella is simplier to set up and faster: http://hem.fyristorg.com/matben/. Actually Coccinella is not SVG, it's just kind of like Paintbrush. Very simple.
ma: btw. My gobby on kubuntu dapper runs fine, despite the mDNSResponder warning.
I have a topic.
Wiki-net, especially the wiki-net-feed. It's the feed from wiki-net-pages, like for example we have it for the blog-pages (the wiki's blog) already.
The day-pages in this day-page-set list the wikis in our current wiki-net - the ones that are included on wiki-net changes and wiki-net blogs.
I'm thinking about lion's machine code block. A block on top of a page that can be read by a program.
sh: like moinmoin's metadata? ACLs, pragmas, keywords, etc.
ma: guesso, yes.
Couldn't one make a wiki send its information about what wikis are currently in it's focus (respectively its wiki-net-feed) to a big, big server? And this server feeds the wiki back the information about what wikis currently have this wiki in its focus to the requesting wiki?
What I want is make wikis know what other wikis are watching them. A delay of a day is no problem at the moment.
sh: Something like rss backlinks? Maybe you could use the referer field when serving the RSS feed, similar to the automatic backlink extension. There is an extension for oddmuse that will add 'backlinks' to any extrnal pages that link to your page -- at the bottom of that page. Kensanata uses it on his blog, and on oddmuse wiki too, I think.
You could use similar mechanism when serving feeds.
ma: very importan, most important at al is to keep it always cross engine. Never exclude.
sh: well, you could write such an 'extended' RSS module for multiple engines, but I don't think there is any other way. Unless you did all the rss serving via the main, central server that could keep track of who's getting which feed. The drawback is that all the wikis would have to use the server's address for the feeds, not their own. Like http://central-server/my-wiki-feed.rss
ma: that's fine then.
Our wiki-net-feed could contain all kinds of date-page-feeds, calendars, events. You could all synchronize it. One wiki plans a party and automatically comes to know that a similar wiki in another town is doing the same and subito they can get together, such stuff, blah. (dizzy again)
sh: So the server would do caching and re-assembling of the feeds, not just redirect. That'd make the wikis less loaded too -- all the bandwidth would be on the main server, which would get the feeds from wikis only several times a day. This needs disk space and bandwidth :(
A simple redirector script would, on the other hand, just need very small bandwidth and almost no disk space, and it would still be able to keep track of who's reading who.
ma: sounds good to me.
Maybe one could decentralize it and make the big servers amongst each others exchange data, like every two days. So a wiki in your "category" gets informed about the fact that you are watching it within a day, but a very different wiki from another category using a different server wouldn't be informed faster but within two days. Dunno.
sh: this kind of decentralized software is pretty hard to write and debug. And note, that if you push this approach to the extreme, we are back to each wiki having their own module to keep track of these things.
Wait a minute, you can make it possible to use with any wiki engine -- just make the 'redirector' script, but install it together with wiki, so that if you normally access the wiki via http://wiki/wiki.cgi?action=rss, you'd now access it via http://wiki/redirector.cgi, and the script would check your, referer, update the stats, and then redirect you to http://wiki/wiki.cgi?action=rss.
ma: starts a big <*g>, very big.
sh: Of course you don't have all that interweaving of the feeds and stuff -- but at least you have the 'backfeeds'. Once this works, you can go further.
ma: got this feeling as if there is something important in that direction. When it fist poofs effective, when it fist shows this amazing e-function of intelligence collaboration it will explode. Who knows?
sh: Have you read the 'Megabit Bomb' by Stanisław Lem? :)
ma: no, but I read some Lem stuff, The futurologic congress, he rocks atlantis. Does still. Died short ago, right?
sh: Yes, I cried whole night... He theoretizes that the information might have something like the 'critical mass', just like uranium, so once you store enough information in one place -- it explodes. Or at least does something very wrong with people using it.
ma: Totally agree. Not wrong maybe, but very unknown to people now.
sh: They wouldn't be people as we know them now. Totally alien.
ma: that's this "singularity"-thingie. A place where physical laws do not apply anymore. Like in black holes. Will be maybe a "social-law-singularity", hihi. I have no - absolutely no - idea what it will be like but I'm not the slightest afraid of it.
sh: There are so many people "using" and meddling with social laws, that a change would surely be something good :). Imagine all those advertisement spacialists and crowd control staff.
ma loooool!, rofl!!! Me too, sometimes and for very small doses. Else I'd laugh my ass off.
k, 98% of common genes with bonobos, who are known for cheating and ripping each others off. But: We have the internet and guy who know to code, they don't.
The singularity will mercilessly unveal all kind of behaviour that relates back to this decent amount of percentage of genes, it will gently explain and show up in a clear and understandalbe way that it is not efficient to act like that and show how to act adequate to the developed degree of species. Simple.
sh: there will be always exploits possible and people eager to abuse them. The internet is already split into users who have some sort of server, and those who has to beg for hosting.
sh: Well, I usually use some tricks to avoid crowds and get away from it... It's a little like with crossbows and later firearms -- their creators thought they will make the world a better place, because you didn't have to be strong to use them effectively -- and so the separation to the strong and the weak would be eliminated. Turned out to just create the separation between the ones who could afford the weapons and those who couldn't.
It's similar with internet and computers -- on the one hand, they connect people and make the world a global village. On the other hand, they create horrible barriers for people who can not use computers.
Hm. Only not being able to use it but having access to is an improvement. Physical strength once was of more of an advantage than today, true. But intelligence was the rocker. Else hippopotami would be the superiour species now ;) (reminder, we are not superior, but we're part of it.)
sh: But I wonder if intelligence is really *that* better than strenght. It's still dominance. Right, *theoretically* the intelligent people are supposed to treat others better -- but that's not true. And it's only one kind of intelligence that's promoted -- the technical kind. Diversity is life, uniformity and stagnation is death -- so promoting only one kind seems wrong.
ma: Don't quite get it. Like "embrasse the stupid!". Yes. Absolutely: One-big-soup. Know Anthony Burgess' "Lynx"?
ah, ok, promoting only intelligece or only strenght. Hm.
sh: Sorry, gotta go. See you later.
MattisManzel 10:59, 26 June 2006 (CEST): Good ting, as usual.