ting14, thursday 31st of March 2005, 21:00 GMT (22:00 CET)[edit]
ting14_document is on the article page
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ting14_talk
Participants
- ma: Mattis Manzel
- F: Fabi
- si: sigi
- seb : Sebastien Sauteur
F: Moin!
ma: vengo
F: Fabi still thinks a ting should have an agenda.
ma: What about this idea of exporting last n lines of irc to moon-edit and furter to wiki.
http://www.emacswiki.org/cw?action=browse;id=MoonEdit;rcclusteronly=MoonEdit
F: can you post this url somewhere where it can be cut of and pasted into my browser, please?
ma: use arrow keys and shift for marking and copy as usual, copy text outwards works, pasting text inwards not.
F: Doesn't work on Linux.
ma: k, the Linux version has defeats. Didn't remember that one.
F: This does only make sense if these lines are worth further discussion. And you should specify with channel you want to take the lines from...
F: Btw you still didn't say which channel you want to take the lines from...
ma: more a principle idea. #wiki on freenode might be good for a test. EFnet #wiki is for our s23-wiki activities, we could try it as well there. It's mostly about writing the bot first, I guess. I have no idea of the technical difficulties that come along with it and what differences there are technically between diverse irc channels. How difficult does it sound to you? "Export last 20 lines to moonedit<pagename>", something like that.
F: Sounds quite senseless to me. Why don't you just copy them by hand? You should select the lines by content anyway.
ma: in my x-chat I can't copy. I have to save the window and copy from there. Weeding out non important stuff is done fast. You feel there is something to condense in the last 150 lines - zack. Cutting the 40% or whatever non-relevant is done in a minute collectively. Especially when passion is high, and it often is when something worth exporting comes up on irc. It takes some basic skills of the participants, sure. Moon-edit is pretty ugly and a bit weird and misses essential features in some corners, right, but it is powerful. Bit difficult to see on the first view, right.
I thought copying from irc doesn't work in general, for privacy or something. Obviously not true, eh?
moon-edit is more intense, but far less private than irc. It's the good tool for precious text worth refactoring and publishing. You are not alone on it, like you would be on wiki, if you'd copy to it from irc directly. That's a major difference. In this hour of collectivity m u c h may happen to a text tht wouldn't even over month if it was on a wiki rightaway.
Exporting to wiki btw, done it's on
http://is-root.de/wiki/index.php/Talk:TingWiki/ting14
F: In my X-Chat copying works quite well.
ma: alone you stay on a wiki nevertheless. That's the main point. Alone we stay here, that's what rather worries me now. Paste the wiki url to some relevant channels and jabbers.:). Most important point is that you can go moon-edit fast whenever there is a desire for and not be reduced to ting-time when someone else might be around. It's like switching on the tape recorder when a jam-session gets groovy. It's even better.
ma: sigi saves the ting, cool. sigi rettet das Ting, kühl.
si: wen erwartest du noch?
ma: Du reichst mir. Jemand. Ich reiss mir hier die Eier aus und man ignoriert es. Naja, waren schon gute Tings dabei. Ich wünscht', ich hätt mehr Zeit, mal was zu kondensieren (oder ein/e andere/r) täts. "Sieht mir nicht nach irgendwas anderem aus als nach 'nem chat". Sowas von Programmierern zu hören, tut weh. Es ist auf 'nem wiki wohlgemerkt und hat eine Phase kollaborativen Arbeitens durchlaufen wohlgemerkt. "Sieht mir nicht nach irgendwas anderem aus als nach 'nem chat aus." Aua .
si: es ist solange chat, solange man nichts gemeinsam bearbeitet .
si: hast du meine anregung auf gruender-wiki/konsensseite gelesen?
ma: Ist mir nicht so ganz Gewahr im ganzen Trubel.
si: es gehr um's recent changes ranking . kann's hier leider nicht rueberkopieren .
ma: reinkopieren geht nicht, raus ja.
si: raus auch nicht.
ma: Idee klingt gut. DigestedRecentChanges, unsere Empfehlungen, sozusagen. Unser community-geschärfter Blick. Aber krieg mal die Bande dazu. Deine Anleitung ist sauber aber echt für Linuxer. Meine Linux install ist ganz schräg.
si: sind wir erst einmal zu dritt, dann machen auch die andern mit . leider hat helmut auf konsensseite noch nicht reagiert .
ma: pir segelt noch, kommt aber aber bald (*dream*).
si: seine seite auf wikiwiki.de existiert noch . hab sie neulich zufaellig gefunden .
ma: It's a wiki. Auf meatball sollte letztens pirs seite gelöscht werden Habe protestiert ohne weitere Erklärungen (hatte besseres zu tun). ... exportiere auf wiki. Done, so jetzt kann pir es lesen. Ha!
si: ist das obere mit fabi von heute?
ma: 30 min her. (hover over timestamps wären gut hier.)
mir scheint, die programmiererbande ist wikimaessig noch nicht so gut drauf .
ma: irgendwie verwirrt es sie, wenn man das versteckte irc und das offene wiki miteinander zu verknüpfen versucht, aber das kommt, denke ich.
si: ja ich denke auch, dass das sich langsam entwickelt .
ma: OrdnerOnlineCommunities auf Gründer-wii. Helmuthat recht, man sollte Communities sammeln und vernetzen. Welche Technik sie benutzen, is' doch Schnuppe.
si: oder ein gemeinsames wiki aufmachen . das war ja mein vorschlag, dass man auf einem speziellen wiki alle recent changes sammeln und filtern koennte .
ma: ok, ich verstehe - aus einer bekannten Auswahl verfeinert auswählen - aus den eigenen recent near changes / recent changes of our neighbors. Das treibt das ganze auf die Spitze. Bravo! More hivemindish ain't possible! Das ist die node-wiki Idee auf Community-Ebene, irgendwie, denk ich gerad'. Wahrscheinlich aber isses neu und ziiiiemlich gut.
Die digests aus verschiedenen Communities mischen sich wiederum und du rufst Community wiki auf - und wie 50 andere Communities über Community-wiki denken, dynamisch wohlgemerkt. Cool. Ein Katzenspiel eigentlich. Hätt nicht gedacht, dass es so schnell gehen würde, Naja, wiki halt.
si: muss ein wiki-eigentuemer etwas installieren, wenn man sich seine recent changes ziehen will? ich kenne mich mit den technischen einzelheiten da nicht so aus .
ma: wer ein wiki installiert, Helmut zu Beispiel, weiss, dass ein wiki denen gehört, die es benutzen. Wer rss-extentions installiert, hat das vor langer Zeit verinnerlicht. np. No Problem.
ma: Das ist brandneue Technik. Mediawiki hat's als extension, moin experimentiert damit. Bei Martin hab' ich angefragt, wie weit pmWiki damit ist. Sonst weiss ich selbst noch nicht mehr drüber. Wenn im Firefox unten rechts das orange Kaschterl erscheint könnte es gehen. Muss aber nicht.
si: gut, wir brauchen auf jeden fall eine oder mehrere gruppen . darin sehe ich auch den sinn des baumes, grundlage fuer eine gruppenbildung zu sein . notfalls fangen wir zu zweit an . zumindest bei der terra-bank waere das doch moeglich, denke ich gerade .
ma: die Idee Tom einen zu überweisen gefällt mir.
si: super, kannst du ihm bescheid sagen?
ma. mach ich.
si: die idee ist klar? ich schenke ihm das geld und bekomme dafuer ein terra-bank - konto?
ma: soweit ja. Gleiches gilt für mich. Dann besteht eine Beziehung zwischen Tom und uns. Er kann dies weitergeben, richtig? Und diese wiederum.
si: genau, muss man aber nicht .
ma: muss is nich. free software.
si: ja, wenn man es weitergibt, erhaelt man ein konto auf terra-bank (falls der bank-rat - wir - das geschenk anerkennt) ich moechte dir uebrigens auch einen hunderter ueberweisen . den kannst du ruhig behalten, du hast dann ja schon ein konto .
ma: crazy überweiserei. Die herkömmlichen Banken verdienen daran. Das ist nicht gut.
si: wir koennen es ja so machen, dass ich dir 200 euro ueberweise (oder 500) . das ist dann fuer mich billiger, und du leitest das geld dann weiter, wenn wir uns einig sind, wo es hingehen soll .
ma: "Ich überweis'dir 200, nee 500 - das ist dann für mich billiger". Besser kann man das top-down wohl nicht fassen. Hat was, auf jeden Fall.
si: ich muss wegen harz4 immer ein kleines konto haben, deshalb habe ich das geld auch hier rumliegen und waere froh, wenn es endlich weg ist und so .
ma. hi seb.
seb: hello Mattis :-) seb: hi sigi, fabi
si: hi
ma: Sigi and I are figuring about a terra-bank in German. We think of gifting Tom some €'s for the start.
seb: Mattis, i was just wondering about how and if we could translate into french the wikinode faq
ma: they should be reworked. It's lions work from 04 mostly an evolved I think. Haven't taken the time, though knowing how important these FAQ's are.
seb: yes, i read them and i thought they were a pretty good means to understand what it is about. better wait then :-)
ma: the ranking, as a community process, as a major aspect should be implied. It's what makes it organical. Sigi just pointed out that communities coud do digests of their favorites of neighbour's recent changes, that is - you have community-wiki and what 50 other communities think about community-wiki.
si: no, not communities, little groups out of them .
seb: so you'd need to elect electors.. ?
si: exactly, the groups are the electors
ma: we do things, we do not elect before, I guess. We take a look on each other and say don't exaggerate, or c'mon now when nesseccary.
seb: i just mean that it's not going to be easy to sort, and rank, and so on.. just because.. i don't know :-) i don't say it's a bad idea. and you'd put it on the wikinode then.. i need to read more about it.
si: imagine some hundred recent changes a day and you, mattis and me, we are meeting here to rank the top thirty .
seb: i see. i just hope we don't forget some good stuff in the seventy percent left. actually, i'm not very objective i guess, cause i don't realy like the idea of ranks. but it's probably gonna be a good one, when many wikis are going to be interconnected together, so you can't read everything..
ma: others might join in and make it more "objektive" (there is no npov).
si: yes, everyone can rank its articels on the list . he(she) may mark it and we put it on .
seb: it's done the wiki way, but at a higher level. got it.
ma: ranking for x - bayle, mattis, lion. Ranking for y - helmut. Ranking for z - bayle, lion, helmut. The graph.
seb: but i thought that the wikinode was based on the entire wikis, not really paying attention to the pages.
ma: that's new ideas about the ranking and is not implied in the wiki-node up to now. But all that could be meta data of a wiki, as far as I got it.
seb: i'm not used to read the future.. wikis make me learn a new way to handle things..
ma: I guess to me too.
si: Do you have any ideas? :)
seb: to be honest, as far as i know wikis, i'm in a discovery process.. at this time, i wonder how people can try to use it, i enjoy the idea of "cities wikinodes", even if there seems not to be that many wikis in france to put in it.. but on a technical, functionnal level, what and how we can do things with wikis, all i've read is more than i can imagine at this time :-)
seb: i'll be back in a minute.
si: me too
ma: It is two directions: sidewards, by making connetions to other wikis and communities on other online plattforms and forwards ( there is no backwards, there is a perfect archive). Wiki is the community-guarded temporary end-product of a thought. There are much faster levels for thoughts, moon-edit, irc. How to get them condensed fast into the global library - wiki - so they are accessible by all. That is the question. New stuff counts!
seb: what do you mean by forwards. sidewards, i see.
ma: forwards in the sense of developing speed. See, this on wiki, it would have taken a week.
seb: sidewards is sort of "in space", when forwards is "in time" ?
ma: sidewards is not a space. It's time as well as it causes interaction between the wikis. They read each other, comment, include each other on their recent near changes. It's time. as much as forwards/backwards is space ;)
seb: i got it. you're looking far away from.. but it's a very interesting point of view. :-)
ma: thx *blush*.
si: in the future, there is one wiki. and all the other wikis are clusters of pages of this wiki .
seb: i've read an article by lion talking about visual navigation. And i feel like, when i'm trying to figure out how to navigate that one big wiki, that we definitely need a map, to go sidewards, forwards, etc. In a fractal way. He was talking about this i guess. Zooming on a point of view, then going to the one just next, etc.
ma: the point is, everyone would have influence on developing this possible path of view/of search that a single individual could take. Getting through easily to the place where you serve best, find others interested in what you know about - no matter if it's phyton or cats.
seb: sounds good. it needs to stay an open land. :-) This idea of building together this space, our space. i like it a lot.
ma: building from scratch: money included.
seb: i just come back from a "business meeting", a sort of social meeting for business, where people talk about affairs and how to make money with internet stuffs. it's interesting, the movement. but i'm happy i joined here tonight, cause i like "visions". and the idea of building something from scratch, i'd better say participating in a way or another, because the creators are well known. and skilled, etc. to make a living out of good ideas is ok, since i don't need to lie to myself too much :-)
si: we can think here about this things better than in real life and if we come to a consens we can influence real life .
seb: it's worth trying.
ma: at least our thoughts are history. wiki = history, a perfect one. If our thoughts are good they can be found. If not the do not take much space on a harddisk somewhere.
seb: so you'd better be honest, anyways :-)
exporting to wiki