ting11, sunday 20th of March 2005, 18:00 GMT (19:00 CET)[edit]
ting11_document is on the article page
This page was copied in from moon-edit, server: is-root.de, port: 32123, page: ting11_talk
Write at the end of the page please (no rule).
recommendations for good tinging:
- add a line between contributions (1)
- separate urls by line shifts, so you can copy them easier
- new contributions go to the end of the text (2)
- open two windows, talk and document
- copy good content over to document, You have a second window for the document page open, have you?
- refactor the page a day after the ting on the wiki (3)
- integrate the results into relevant wiki-pages.
(1) make a line between contributions as it's easier to read and it gives you the possibilty ...
to think ...
and restart after a single lineshift.
(2) no rule but it's more easy for all readers like this - it archives the chronology.
(3) http://is-root.de/wiki/index.php/TingWiki
proposed topics
- wiki-node-party (making wiki-nodes all over wikilandia)
- taking tings on sundays some hours later (sunday morning 10 am for lion)
participants
- ma: MattisManzel
- si: sigi
- tc: TheCrypto aka JulianKrause
- lk: LionKimbro
- marica: marica
we need to sign as exporting the page to wiki the colours get lost.
ma: hi marica. How`s the weather in Japan?
marica: hi I feel the tingle of the spring in the air (sry I was looking away..) (no pun intended) we had a rather strong earthquake in the southern part (looking away again..)
ma: ba, earthquake. Ugly. I had one in Italy here, very very weak. But it shocks you to death. ba.
si: hi marica .
si: mattis, habe ich jetzt alles geloescht? auch die history? waere gut, wenn man das auch koennte .
ma: Am Anfang wars so, dann haben uns ein paar Holzköpfe schöne Seiten gelöscht und Tom hat es deaktiviert.
si: wer ist tom?
ma: Thomasz Dombrowoski, Gdansk, hat moon-edit geschrieben. Netter Mensch. Kommt öfters zum ting.
si: hat er gut gemacht . wir sollten ihm ein konto auf der wiki-bank spendieren .
ma: wenn er moon-edit opensourcet, vorher nich'. ;) :) naja, vielleicht doch vorher.
si: und damit sind wir beim thema . die terra-bank hat immer noch keine verwaltungs-gruppe . ich hatte fuer den anfang an helmut, dich und mich gedacht, auch wenn es schwer werden wird, helmut ins boot zu ziehen . aber es waere vielleicht eine gelegenheit, moon-edit zu testen .
ma: don't resign marica, there will be a lot of English later I guess ;) Dies auch. Ich fände einen Ansatz zur Verwaltung sinnvoll und an der Zeit, doch sind da noch eine Reihe andere Süppchen an denen mer kochet und es ist Wichtiges dabei. Die nachbarschaftlichen RecentChanges sind mir gerad' am heissesten.
si: und mir faellt da tour-bus und wiki-nodes ein . wie ich schon sagte: doppelt gemoppelt . ich bin dafuer, tour-bus voellig durch wiki-nodes zu ersetzen .
ma: Der tourbus wächst eh langsamer. Ob er von Bedeutung, ...? Naja, vielleicht später mal. Beide haken gut ineinander, finde ich. Ich verlinke jetzt immer von tour-bus stop auf wiki-node und umgekehrt. Soll doch ein- und aussteigen werimmer wannimmer will.
si: hast du ein beispiel fuer die verlinkung?
ma: Open Guides to London:
http://london.openguides.org/index.cgi?WikiNode
Leut' könnten noch mit Dutzenden anderen Systemen der Verknüpfung daherkommen, je mehr desto besser. Unwichtiges fällt eh durchs Sieb.
si: was ist mit dem rc-ranking gemeint?
ma: Stell dir vor, eine omminöse Maschine fütterte 30 wiki-nodes auf den wiki-node deines wikis. Drei werden gelöscht, weil irrelevant, 10 andere von der Community raufgesetzt, weil sie in der maschinenvorauswahl fehlten. Dann gibt jeder denjenigen Nachbarn eine Unterschift, die er gut findet. Vielleicht das beste zweimal und zwei andere einmal unterschreiben, irgendsowas. Dann rankt man die Nachbarn nach der Zahl der Unterschriften. Auf recent changes of our neighbors kannst du ankreuzen, von wie vielen Nachbarn du die rc's sehen willst, 3 - 5 sind gut, denke ich. Kreuzt du 3 an zeigt es dir die 3 liebsten Nachbarn der Gemeinschaft an. Dynamisch, denn wenn ich ein neues Wiki gut finde, setz' ichs auf die Nachbarn-Liste im wiki-node. Ich entferne auch eines, das ich nimmer so wichtig finde.
si: sollte man sich nicht vorher einigen, welche man rauf- und runter-setzt?
ma: Wäre schön. Das wird entstehen, denke ich. Manche wikis werden einen scharfen Blick bekommen, andere (weiter) durchs nichts taumeln. tel.
si: gut. zwei sachen noch . einmal: wie bekommen wir helmut in eine art gruppen-rat? und zum zweiten: ich meinte das vorhin ernst mit dem konto . bzw. ich waere bereit, tom 100 euro zu ueberweisen, wenn ich das auf terra-bank gutgeschrieben kriege . er muesste sich nur auf terra-bank melden und dort seine konto-nummer angeben und spaeter den empfang bestaetigen . ueber das open sourcen von me koente man dann ja noch reden . ansonsten wuerde ich mich dann wieder verabschieden . war nur zum reinschnuppern . ist jedenfalls zur gruppen-bildung bestens geeignet . wie gesagt: du, ich und helmut auf gruender-wiki .
ma: wenn du weg musst. Sonst bleib logged, mal sehen, wer noch kommt. moon-edit fängt erst so mit 6 Teilnehmern richtig an zu rocken.
gut, ich lass noch an --sigi (unsern thread kannst du dann ja wieder loeschen )
ma: gute Ideen löschen statt zu refactoren? Ab morgen ist das auf dem wiki, da kannst du es bearbeiten. Hab ich jüngst vergessen. Die Inclusion ist nur zum flotten angucken für alle im Browser, solange man noch in moon-edit arbeitet. Dann wird direkt aufs Wiki übertragen. Das fehlt für die letzten tings noch. hi Crypto: How's coedit doing?
tc: Okay, I just need to get back to work on it. :)
ma: Lion and jroes are up with some XML-RPC, SOAP stuff, didn't get a thing but sounded cool. A server that feeds a preselection of wiki-nodes to wiki-nodes would be great, depending on information about your wiki (like stored on SwitchWiki maybe). That would take a categorization of wikis, I guess. Oh, o . (means work). There will be thousands of wiki-nodes, how can we do it that a wiki gets a feed of thirty, fourty of these that are likely to be appreciated by the comminity. The individuals of the community sign their favorite neighbours. Neighbors get ranked by number of signs. Most favorite neighbors get displayed on recent changes of our neighbors, NearRecentChanges. Lion Kimbro, welcome!
lk: Are we all here?
ma: for my part, yea. sigi has his first try here, think he likes it.
lk: I find the mode of keeping the conversation in MoonEdit kind of irritating; I'd rather use IRC, and use MoonEdit for meeting minutes and for keeping track of lists and things. But, it's okay if we don't have some neutral medium.
ma: You said so. irc doesn't go out to wiki. This does. There is a lot of crap usually in the ting-sessions but there are always good ideas worth condensing. I started on having a second window open for refactored stuff, tingn_document. That worked well on the crowded tings, No. 3 + 4, I think.
lk: We've had some bots that export, but: okay. (This is fine for now.) We'll see how it goes. {:)}= I'm subscribed to the ting11_document as well.
ma: good, we might remember to use it. You have no sound, do you?
lk: I have sound, Skype, Teamspeak capabilities. No sound from MoonEdit to tell me people are typing.
ma: I meant are you on windows with moonedit, which has a fantastic typing sound. Great when 6 peaole go ape on it.
lk: Linux. {;)}= It seems to me that- if we were going to use the ting11_document, we'd be doing so already. Well, I guess-- I'll just transcribe from here, to the document, and keep notes in there as we go.
ma: copy and paste with shift and arrow keys btw.
lk: Okay: I've copied and pasted the basic information (participants, etc.,) I'm not summarizing the rest of the page right now. Should we talk about the things on the agenda right now, or-- better yet, perhaps-- do another collection for topics, since there are more of us here now.
ma: tell me if this preselected feed of wiki-nodes I wrote about above is imagineable.
lk: Now, can you explain it a little more? Are you talking about things like near-recent-changes with "near" being neighbors on the network?
ma: we will soon have or do already have an amount of wiki-nodes hard to overlook. If wikis were categorized, a machine could say: these are the 40 wiki a wiki-community will most likely see as its neighbors. From this preselction (+ adding wikis manually that were forgotten by the system) the community would choose its most favorite neighbors. The preselection should be based on information about the wiki that is changeable by the wikicommunity itself (as well as by everybody). Like the infos on wikis stored on switch wiki.
lk: Two things- first, before we get too deep into it, I'm wondering if other people have topics that they want to talk about today. ..? Our agenda has only two items; I'm concerned someone's going to have something they want to talk about, and not mention it. TheCrypto? sigi? marica?
tc: I've got nothing, busy doing some busy work ;)
lk: aok :)
ma: all watching televison?
lk: <laugh> {;)}= Okay, they can watch TV and do homework. Should I continue with response to what you just were saying?
ma: my experience for now is, tings sometime first really get going 2 or 3 hours after the official start (just like jam session:)
lk: ok, ok; I got it. Okay: response:
lk: It's good you mention SwitchWiki, because that's exactly what I was thinking: This sounds like something that's part of the mission of SwitchWiki. Though, I could imagine that a wiki standard would form for keeping metadata about the wiki *on the wiki itself,* which I think is a good idea. (Worried about categorization wars.)
ma: would be better, a template page the users style their wiki's profile on. This profile again gets fed to switchwiki (my god!, feeding all over)
lk: OK. I think I understand.
lk: The main thing we need here, then, is one of the holy grails of wiki: MetaData editing for wiki. That is, machine readable, human editable data kept on wiki and collaboratively maintained.
lk: I'm thinking like X-Wiki, and I understand there are MediaWiki efforts at the same.
ma: Mediawiki I hope has it. I'm still hoping for someone to help me on s23-wik: recent changes of our neighbors. xwiki is still pretty cryptic to me. I can't even make propper wiki-nodes there which is a pitty.
lk: I believe Mediawiki has *an effort* to maintain metadata, I haven't checked on it's status in months, though. X-Wiki is confusing as hell, I agree.
ma: moin and oddmuse wouldn't support it?
lk: I've seen some things about MoinMoin perhaps supporting metadata- automatic retrieval of data off the wiki. I know it has some very primitive support right now, but it's too troublesome to figure out for me right now. But I think they're working on upgrading it, which is a great thing.
lk: Oddmuse? HA! That'll be the day. {;)}= Alex doesn't like features. {;D}= But I hope so! That'd be wicked cool.
ma: Like someone good in summarizing on more crowded tings could permanently summarize. Export to wiki every three minute so it would be transparent to outsides what goes on insides. *Dreaming* (of more participants. In two moon-edit is lame.)
lk: (I just summarized this in the ting11_document.) Yep. {:)}= I like summarizing on the spot.
lk: It is technically possible to make it so that anybody with a web browser can do interactive text editing with us, no additional software required. That is, you can use the technology behind things like Google maps to keep everybody updated. You just take a Javascript enabled web browser, go to a web site, and you're live editing, just like in here. That is technically feasible.
ma: Tom made a test java-(I think)-install of moon-edit. It works.
lk: You don't even need Java. You can do it entirely with Javascript. (A lot of computers don't have Java installed. Including mine..!) But, that's cool.
ma: java or javascrpt, one of them :) The link is on any of the old tings. Would later on sundays be good for you?
lk: No, this is a great time. This is perfect for me.
ma: I like it too.
lk: What time did the meeting start, GMT?
ma: 18:00 UTC on sundays, 21:00 UTC on thursdays
lk: This is connected with an idea that I called "ConcentrationTimes" on the CW, which, sadly, seems to be down right now. We do it Thursdays too?
ma: moon-edit is pure rythm, it makes you meet and reappoint for a meeting - rythmn.
lk: Hey! It's not MoonEdit; {;D}= It's live editing of documents. {;D}= This is important because I'm rooting for >2 efforts to replace MoonEdit. {;)}=
ma: sure. I'd love as well to stop flattering Tom. It gets on his nerves.
lk: Now, on the table, I see we have: s-23 request for help re: RecentNearChanges. Can you explain the request? I just wrote that down from something you said earlier.
ma: make any, whatever wiki's rc's readable on that page. I dunno if we need any modules on s23-wiki or if I just do not find the right syntax by accident ;)
lk: It sounds like a MetaData thing to me. What we would want is something like this:
lk: On the WikiNode, you have a machine-read description of where to find the wiki's RSS feed. And then you also have machine-read links to neighboring wiki.
ma: that means Oddmuse does it too, as the rc's from WiCaFo once worked on it.
lk: OddMuse does RSS aggregation, but it's not tied to the information about the WikiNode neighbors and what not. If you add a neighbor, you manually find it's RSS feed, and manually link it into the aggregation for RecentNearChanges. (2 manual operations.)
ma: k, I mixed things up. What I managed was to add another wiki on open-wiki's near recent changes page. This one is different. It separates by wikis. A mixed list sorted by editing date like the one on community-wiki is better, I think.
lk: agreed
lk: So, the big thing here is that we need meta-data for wiki. I'm not really sure how to push this forward,...
lk: I would think that: MoinMoin is most sympathetic to the idea right now, and has a huge install base, so it's possible that we can help it move along, or "pull" from the other end of their "push." That is, express an eagerness to adopt the technology, and be ready to fire with it as soon as it comes online.
ma: Mediawiki is important. "How come the sex-pistols are so fucking successful?"
lk: Yeah, I don't know them.
ma: mutante digs into it as good as he can and I think he loves it.
lk: mutante? Do you mind if I take a moment out to look at MediaWiki metadata efforts? Like I said before, it's been a few months since I last checked...
ma: np. mutante set up s23-wiki. I met him on the CCC-congress (He simply rocks atlantis).
lk: Looking through MediaWiki; I like this: http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-value_pairs -- I like it because it's simple and obvious.
ma: Can't go into technical pages now. Sorry. A drawing. Something that shows how a community controls the image of their wiki on switchwiki, how the ominous machine makes a preselection of wikinodes depending on this info, how a community adds forgotten wiki-nodes to it and signs neighbors, and how the ranked neighbors get triggered by this ranking on the near recent changes. I have Inkscape, but ... pueh.
lk: I would think that: The people on the wiki itself would determine what the metadata representing their own wiki was, and it would be read by SwitchWiki (or whatever server they use, probably not wiki at this point) and it would be read by neighboring wiki, stuff like that.
ma: ok, forgot, we do not need switch wiki for that.
lk: Because, once you have metadata, you open yourself up to a ton of apps. Like, you could have 5 different SwitchWiki equivalents - basically, they're just like Google Indexers, except they're just scanning off metadata from the various wiki.
lk: You just: Imagine these machines, going door to door, reading off what wiki have to say about themselves. That said, you'd probably have some top-down efforts as well, categorizing other wiki however they imagine to categorize the universe.
lk: I imagine that we would have a page on CommunityWiki, it would look something like this, if we had machine-read data:
(page WikiNodeData)[edit]
wiki-name: "Community wiki" software: "Oddmuse" recentchanges-RSS-feed: http://www.emacswiki.org/cw/foo.rss neighbor-wiki: http://foo.example.net/.../.../.../WikiNodeData?render=raw neighbor-wiki: http://bar.example.net/.../.../.../WikiNodeData?render=raw participant: http://baz.example.net/.../MattisManzel.foaf.rdf participant: http://www.speakeasy.org/~lion/foaf.rdf
lk: something like that
ma: I'm pretty positive, it should work. :)))
lk: It won't just work, it'll ROCK! {;D}=
lk: If we ignore content-typing issues, we can do this now, actually. Just: using raw pages, and using content-extraction methods, and stuff...
ma: mu's not around :( It's not only the technical matria, it's also in English (though I wouldn't get much more in German either). So I swap topic again, sorry. The use of small case on the wiki-node: I'm exaggerating, but I do it for a good purpose. I want to show the two different page-looks:
- the overnervous usual wiki page with dozens of links to the same stupid page on it always having the Attention-info twice (BiG case a n d different text color)
- the super-calm smallcase wiki-nodes, with each link only once and links that are readable and understandable.
lk: You are talking about the difference between the editable form, and what shows up on the wiki?
ma: I'm talking about the small-case I used for example on wiki-nodes: wiki-node. I removed the tables there. they are nice to look at in the read-mode but it takes experience (that I still lack after a year and a half) to edit them, an eviteable obstacle.
lk: I have to go soon,... ~30min. (tops)
lk: Let's talk next time about:
- a wikinoding party, and:
- wikinoding style.
There have been some problems with the way we're wikinoding: People are misunderstanding the wikinodes system. We need to concentrate our message, and the way we present nodes to people. That said, we should probably talk about it at a future meeting; I need to go right now. {:P}=
lk: I'm also not sure how much general interest there is from the rest of the ting participants in the noding. Perhaps we should put this as a side thing for after ting sessions, or something.
lk: I do like the tings, I think we need to structure our live interactions more, and this is a good start, I believe.
ma: We should, have a good day.
lk: {:D}=
lk: It's good to see you. Where will transcripts go?
ma: Let's say on midnight. We first make the page-inclusion version. It is only editable in moon-edit. You wanna change something? I then copy the plain text page into the wiki, so the wiki-formattings will work. It's all still a bit "manual".
lk: which wiki do the pages go to?
ma: s23-wiki/ting-wiki: ting11_talk this one. It's a bit hidden on the talk page (mediawiki).
lk: Okay! Perhaps we should x-post them to CW.
ma: perhapst, bye!
{:)}=