Talk:TingWiki/ting4

TingWiki

Text inclusion from ting4_talk
ting4_talk

Connection between PoieticGenerator and MoonEdit
(luigi - thinking aloud -): collective images (Poietic Generator) and collective documents (MoonEdit) are "objectives" to be achieved; what's happening "now" towards the achievement of any collective objective is a huge messy "blob" including conceptual, functional and technical/structural aspects; i wonder if it could be possible to start managing a relationship among "knowledges" of each aspect .... so that the knowledge of the functional aspects could be seen as an (ergonomic?) interface ....

The type of interface which i'm thinking about might "bridge" the conceptual knowldege of any collective objective and the technical/structural knowledge of any possible solution for such objective "functional requirements". A "functional requirement" knowledge base creation could be seen initially as the outcome of playing around with the GP and MoonEdit .... The only memory i have of an attempt to do something similar ended in failure ... it was strongly coupled with the (difficulty to overome) barriers against "open sourcing";

I don't believe the time has come to try again ... but nothing should prevent us from playing around with the concept ... For instance, i could imagine an approach to creating ... a ludic basecamp for error recovery on technolgica platforms ... does it sound like a crazy idea .... ???? .... end of thinking aloud .... 05-02-06 13:07 Luigi contribution on GP Wiki


 * The two topics : MoonEditLiberationFront and Connection between PoieticGenerator and MoonEdit are focused on the same question : how to support Moon Edit in a collaborative way out of open source ? est-ce vraiment demander la lune ... ;) --sylvie


 * Chevaliers de la table ronde .... allons voir (boir ??) si le vin est bon ... la la la .. :) luigi

ting4_talk copied in from the moon-edit export page:
 * http://c.h23.org/t/ting4.php

=
===================================== http://is-root.de/wiki/index.php/TingWiki/ting4

participants have been:
 * ma: Mattis Manzel
 * tom: Tomacz Dobrowolski
 * James: ??
 * xtof: Christophe Ducamp + agathe: Agathe ?
 * sylvie: Sylvie Bourguret
 * TheCrypto: Julian Krause
 * luigi: Luigi Bertuzzi
 * orphee: Olivier Seres
 * EA: Elizabeth Albrycht
 * tav: ??
 * urgen: ??
 * finn: ??
 * T: ??
 * OlivierAuber : sorry I was to late :-{

=
=====================================

Attendance record:

luigi: in 19:00 - out 19:30 .... desolé je dois partir ? adesso parto davvero :))

sylvie : ciao luigi  :)

xtof : salut luigi a plus tard agathe me demande ou tu es en Italie ? :-)

luigi: ciao sylvie :) je vais travailler avec ADAGIOblog ce soir :))

sylvie: encore ;)

luigi: oui et la prochaine fois nous allons discuter la version anglaise ? - juste ?? bye bye

sylvie: bye :)

luigi: pour agathe .je suis a la montagne (Dolomiti) pres de Belluno et Cortina parfois je suis a Bologna .... je vais jamais a Bergamo :(

agathe : je suis souvent du cote de Bergame, Canetto etc ! je marque des arbres aussi du cote de bologne mais egalement vers pistoia, firenze bye bye a +

ma: hi

tom: hi, Tom here... would you like to try a new server with sorting? windows or linux? do you have time to install new server before the ting?

ma: oi Tom, just made tea, wait I`ll ask for T (our server admin) asked him on irc, lets see if he's around.

tom: ok

ma: This is cool btw.

tom: compiling linux ver...

ma: all quite, all having tea (and not watching). xtof made some proposals in french. url above.

tom: oh

ma: Seems there might be real recent changes for the ting-wiki too soon, mutante is on it. Is there a url for the server-patch? brb

tom: yup.. http://sphere.pl/~tomkh/files/meserver (linux) http://sphere.pl/~tomkh/files/meserver.exe (windows) ok done :) you can upload it and restart this server maybe .. it's just sorting by date by default, but you can sort by name or size, by joining (filelistN) or (filelistS) or (filelistNP) or (filelistSP) (P = separate sort for passworded files), it also hi-light files with users :)

James: Hello guys. :) those are good news!

tom: hello

sylvie: hi

ma: Sounds delicious. A pitty that my admin friends are not around yet. Still trying to make them look.

tom: :\ http://sphere.pl/~tomkh/files/meserver.exe what is it ?

tom: how are you, sylvie? fine thanks

i'm listening to demoscene radio now, probably only demoscene geeks listen to this

ma: url?

www.scenemusic.net merci i'm not a geek so i listen : http://www.boombox.net/ :) checking out :P http://www.radio-astronomy.net/listen.htm <- is this just random noise all the time ? "is broadcasting live sounds from our cosmos." cool, hehe, I guess vacuum-cleaner sound is better although :P minimal

tom: new version of meserver, for hosting directory of files (like c.h23.org is doing) ok :)

ma: Just told crypto, the CoEdit autor, about ting4. Might be interesting for you Tom to meet him.

tom: I already met him once, just a short talk. :)

TheCrypto: Hello

tom: Oh, Hi, We were talking about you

TheCrypto: Yeah, I see. I'm still working on CoEd. I ran into a serious typo in the paper I'm working from so hopefully I can fix that this weekend.

tom: You mean.. a paper has typo ?

TheCrypto: Yeah, I'm working from the RealTimeCollaborativeSystemsEditing Paper and it has typo in it's pseudocode.

tom: What is this paper about? I mean.. some palimpsets or maybe operation transforming (or something) ? I don't use any papers.

TheCrypto: Operation Transforming.

tom: Oh. I imagine you receive a commands and order them or transform according to some rules ? It looked tricky/complex too me.

TheCrypto: It is a bit tricky, but not difficult. I'm PlainTalking it so other people can implement it in thier programs.

tom: Ok. This is the same algo as SubEthe have, right? ok.

TheCypto: We don't know that. All we know is that it's sending raw Cocoa calls over the BEEP protocol.

tom: Do you have Mac, Crypto ? I hope to get some soon to try SubEtha.

TheCrypto: Nope, Linux.

James: wow, That random noise from space sounds cool. Im going to leave it all night long on a little volume while I sleep. I usually do enya... (I wonder if I will be abduced or something xD very funny dreams may come! hehe) hummm, those guys at boombox.net are SO interoperable: " free live webcasts and live sets . download the latest REAL PLAYER to listen/watch the files optimal use with browser class 5 and PC" So if you arent cut by that patron, forget aboute their service.... oh man :/

tom: yes no MP3 or OGG streaming :/

James: [I dont like propietary formats :(]

tom: .... have a nice space dreams yup

ma: T admin has trouble and went for a shower, sorry. Maybe he'll be around later. We are all humans.

tom: ok, no problem

ma: Hope the others find a free colour to log in here,

_  _ v __ _ __     V   V      = = _/__\___  |   | O   O   |   |

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=========== roadmap ^ parkometers? :P

ma: Remember the later readability of this document and possibly add text at the end. no rule! We'll export to the wiki when it's over. Regular sessions on sundays, another one in the week when desired. Is that good?

xtof : Bonjour a tous ! Hi world :-)

tom: Bonjour.

xtof : bonjour qui parle ici si on adoptait le mode théatre (prenom avant la contribution ? puis saut de ligne pour téléversement sur une TransporterRoom wiki !) bon ca commence dans 6 minutes je vais chercher du vin :-)

ma: hi xtof

xtof : hi mattis ?

bonjour

tom: Too bad I have no automatic language translator in mind (or in MoonEdit :P).

TheCrypto: *adds another feature to the Roadmap for CoEd* :)

ma: I'm with it.

tom: What is roadmap ? Like a "todo" list ?

TheCrypto: A roadmap is what features the program should have at each release. Pretty much, but more like a dependency list. I will release version .5 when the program can do these things.

tom: ok.. I think for some reason it's fun to have many different programs like MoonEdit or SubEtha.. of course only for some reason, like: the best program/protocol will win :P

James That's in theory, you know sometimes things dont go that way :/

sylvie: yes what's mean the best ? :)

tom: best = more useful, stable, fastest, most accesible, maybe cheaper?

sylvie: i'm agree with your definition :) but in general the best have not always  these qualities

tom: you are thinking about the "best" who persuade more people to use his app using marketing or force (big moneys, patent-protection, beeing not honest etc..) ?

sylvie: Yes best is what I  need not what is saying best ... it depends  about what kind uses each one need ...

tom: Yeah. The best could be the program that best fit to our needs.

James: what needs? hehe, I think most technologies start out as something fun, then you finally end up building something that has a Real Use for doing Real Work.

and real work is to create another fun ? :P

yes the in progess is the solution but how to interact between different programs similar and navigate thrrugh the different to choosee

oh.. ok.. I think good program will allowing singing together like in a choir :) (offtopic) choir ? chorus.. just multiple people singing together ok:)

ok I'm going down to chat with others.. oui :) no ... is more easy to stay on the  web  :)

is not program maybe I think moree   about WEBinterface ..mmy keyboarrd§§§§

oh I see something is getting bad with your keyboard yes:) Is this because of this program ? or in general ? in general:)

TheCrypto: Competition is good, it makes us all work harder ;)

Tom: yup ;)

James: I think so too. yeah, I can still remember ie/netscape...

TheCrypto: Okay, that's a good example of it not working.

ma: Collaboration is good, it makes us all work harder ;) (Or do you - ähm - think this is air you are breathing?) The soupish road map. ting4_document - all have a second window open with it? (rhetorical question)

Luigi: i have a 2nd window and i have added a note to the topic i'm interested

ma: Let's later try out the generateur poietic. It's interesting, it's language independent.

tom: oh, cool - what is it?

TheCrypto: I googled the Poietic Generator, could someone explain it?

Luigi: i have placed a statement in ting4 document about what the PG may enable people to do not sure it sounds right to the PG creator :(

ma: People paint a picture together. java somehow.

Luigi: no matter how (technically) for the PG concerned .... i believe; first should come the objective, then it may be discussed, agreed whatever is going to serve best towards the objective ...

orphee : hello I m orphee (OlivierSeres) no agenda, as usual? ;-) Hello everybody

Luigi: the agenda is in ting4_document

xtof : bonjour orphee !

ma: yiiha!

luigi : ciao tutti

James: hello everyone! / Hola a todos :)

xtof : bonjour luigi ayé ca marche yeaaaaaaaaaah bonjour tous hi everybody !

ma: me luv 'em tings :)

xtof : nous pourrions avoir la venue d'elizabeth pour traiter le Topic4. Elizabeht est passee tout a l'heure sur la page ME de bloggingplanet ! Qui souhaiterait parler du Topic1 la rédaction du guide du routard vers la terre wiki ? Hitchhiking guide to wikiland in langue française ?

orphee : moi je veux bien ; s'agit il seulement de lister les <> syntaxes ? Elisabeth Hello

xtof : Topic 1 non pas seulement de lister les syntaxes mais aussi regarde la définition de la mission sur le craowiki: http://wiki.crao.net/index.php/GuideDuRoutardVersLaTerreWiki - créer plein de dessins. Du langage visuel pour mieux expliquer wiki. Beaucoup de boulot sur la page diagram translation chez communitywiki. Il faudrait apprendre Inkscape si j'ai bien compris.

xtof : bonjour Elizabeth. We have the topic4 on the ting4_document page

EA: OK I see that.

ma: topic5: Obviously, else they would be here already. Just message-skyped Lion.

TheCrypto: Thank you orphee for the translations

xtof : Oui Orphee va jouer au "translator french-english" pour TheCrypto !

ma: topic3 is superhot I think. It works with jabber, moon-edit couldn't be to difficult, I guess.

xtof : I'm with agathe my girl friend. she thinks the colors are not very distincted ? :-) How could we be 42 on a ME-session

TheCrypto: Agree with xtof

Elizabeth: Me too - everything is very washed out colorwise.

Elizabeth: If you click on Negate Colors under View - it turns the background black and you can see the colors really well.

ma: C'mon, but right. A possibility for tuning the saturation level individualy had been talked about I remember.

TheCrypto: 43things is a website. 43things.com

tom: hehe "Contribute to open source software" is high on the list

ma: long live the friendly liberation front!

tom: you know that joke.. that some open source software has longer contributors list than a source code itself :)

James: hehehehe

ma: TheCrypto beliberately blocks a colour here to spoil the project;)

TheCrypto: Sorry, somehow I'm in here twice

tom: oh - are you still connected twice, or just connected/disconnected/connected-again ?

TheCrypto: No, the latter

tom: oh, not good

ma - I propose thursday 24th of Feb. 21:00 GMT for ting5

BTW if you are bored I have an interesting announcement ! :)         http://sphere.pl/~tomkh/jame/                            It's a test of a little ME-clone in java app...

EXcellent :) It has much less features than MoonEdit although :/ just a test.. I like notepad : simple text but I can also make ascii page or html simplicity is beautifull for no  geek:)

James: Tom, it looks so cool. I wonder if you will release something usable soon. I would love to use it in my web just for fun. It doesnt have to have many features. It is cool as it is right now.

oh.. maybe just colors? (maybe not background but foreground text color or something)

maybee we have to test and send you feeback where for feedback

=
Topic 6 :

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* possibility to fill the

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Topic 4

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EA: On journalists - I would invite a few friendly blogger-style journos (I know a few) to join in a chat on a topic - to be decided - that demonstrates the tech. But you are going to want to make sure they know a few things via the how to guide.

Targets: Tom Foremski - Silicon Valley Watcher (columnist Financial Times). Mitch Wagner, SecurityWatch, Om Malik Biz2.0, Plus guys like Jeremy Wright (ensight.org) and Roland Picquepaille (Tech Trends) etc. Maybe get 4-5 together for a discussion. Richard Koman - now also writing for SV Watcher plus Tom plus Jeremy might be afun first group. - They all know each other.

ma - I like the idea. Might know some too. few. A guy at "Die Zeit". He likes new stuff.

EA: I know a guy (based in Silicon Valley) but writes for German biz magazine ...something woche...Mattias...he interviewed me last week about blogging in Europe - really nice guy.

tom: BTW check out my announcement :P (up there)

EA: It would be cool to be able to quickly link to another place in this - you say up there but this is getting long...

tom: yup that's true

xtof : I'd like also to invite french journalists like SergeCourrier who is currently writing an article on wikis. Olivier could invite the french guy which just wrote a paper in LesEchos ?

EA: I like that - I'd start with a small group. It might be fun to do French and English speaking together and translate on the fly like we are doing here.

xtof : yes elizabeth only friends. I'm also thinking to Emmanuelle Richard (RFI Liberation and other papers in Los Angeles... very nice girl you will find on http://www.emmanuelle.net

ma - Hey Journalists are nice but Journalists. A propperly tinging community counts, the rest is merchandizing T-shirts, know. ;)

xtof : what do yu mean by counts Mattis :-) We don't want to sell mugs we want to make a journalist "ting-party"

ma - k for party reasons - fine. Let's make that. I like them. / ('n the old vikings would be proud of us)

EA: You want to have some journos who are early tech adopters to blog/write about this for some buzz - not a party per se.:-)

EA: I think this is a pretty cool tool - I intend on trying it out for a variety of purposes. The color thing is nice, but I'd add an automatic username in front of each entry you do or something.

xtof : don't agree with EA :-) If we want to write in DocumentMode as on the document-page it's not necessary to have a signature on each line. IndicationAuteur is just helpful for chat and threaded discussion !

EA: I agree xtof - I was just thinking that for documents it isn't nec...just for chat! Now, do you "choose" document mode or is it just a use convention decided upon by the users, eg. This is a document page (like the topics/agenda?)

xtof : could be an idea: one file could be divided in two windows : one with indicationauteur the other on a document page. But I'm not sure. Would it be too complicated. I love the simplicity here :-) Nice colors could be sufficient perhapst...

EA: Now that I am using the negative color is is much easier! I think this is the kind of stuff we'll need to figure out as we go...I want to do some document editing in this with a group to see how that goes - but not tonite!

xtof : in 7 minutes the session will be closed Elizabeth :-)

EA: I actually have to leave myself...just a quick intro/stop by to check out this tool  I think it has VERY cool possibilities! I want to get a little more fluent with it, then we can invite some journos/bloggers to check it out.

ma: Will it?

xtof : A joke :-) Just to say I'll leave you to drink an aperitif ! We will try to refactor later. May be a summary-block at the end of the page to close this discussion mode !

EA:Sante!

xtof : thanks Elizabeth. Thanks for coming :-)

EA: Thanks for inviting me! I'll be back :-) - I want to check out the java clone but that will have to wait til another day....bye! bye

ma: Yes, that was cool Maybe we better leave it here til tomorrow before exporting it to the wiki?

xtof : Bye Bye all - it was a pleasure. I could help to refactor tomorrow !

tom: bye

ma: tschüssi

xtof : Bye Sylvie - bon week-end a tous ! cia tom bon week-end - ciao a tous

sylvie: ciao xtof :

SummaryBlock Discussion

 * Anybody can refactor the discussion until Monday February 21st 2005 O:OO CET. After the discussion will move to ting4 on ting-Wiki.

tom: BTW if you don't know yet.. we are testing a java MoonEdit-clone

ma: It's a bit like watching ants. The way they meet and part again. They spend time for that. Pherone and stigmergy stuff. Much like ant-heaps thea are these moon-edit documents.

xtof : about java MoonEdit-clone : do yu mean we could have ting-session in the street on any mobile device ?

tom: oh.. don't have mobile devices with java.. if it's possible.. why not

ma: don't ting and drive, please ;)

tom: hehe

ma: oii finn, ca c'est aussi un peux francais ici.

tav: rehi all!

finn: hi

tom: hi

ma: tav ho!

[tav] sorry for being late, was kept busy by the rest of the espian gang.

EA: whats the espian gang?

ma: freenode #esp

[tav] http://infomesh.net/200X/wtf1/ -- some info

[tav] so, what's been happening?

tom: I was not participating very carefully, although I announced java ME-clone :P

[tav] tom: is that being coded by yourself or ...?

tom: by myself, I did it to pass some java-programming course at university :P they "forced" me to use java, so here you are :)

[tav] cool. when is there going to be a python version? lol

[tav] well, i can sympathise. clients wanting applications developed in java... *shudder*

tom: too bad I have a sentiment for C and C is much powerful / more control

[tav] understandable, but it comes down to adoption and extendability. right now, it's a race against SEE -- the subethaedit developers -- to a large extent. ME provides pretty similar functionality, and has some nice innovations on top.

[tav] But they too have some nice innovations -- mainly thanks to their OS X inheritance -- Rendezvous (zeroconf), iChat, etc.

tom: ok

[tav] But, there is an opportunity to go beyond the simple market of text editors and actually allow others to extend it, and thus establish it as a nice application platform of sorts.

TheCrypto: One of the ideas for CoEd (My project for collaborative editing) is to have a core system for keeping track of changes but be able to put on different types of editing. As soon as CoEd is in a stable state. I'm going to be making CoDraw

[tav] And, there are many who want to do that. including myself ;p

tom: I think multiplayer is good for any kind app

[tav] tom: right! but, it goes beyond just real-time "multi-plexing" and "event routing" though.

[tav] hey TheCrypto! yea, been liking coed progress. well, what i've observed. it seems to have picked up spirit recently

TheCrypto: Yeah, I've run into a slight problem recently, but I'm almost around that.

tom: To make you happy, I have to say some of my friends (from school) are doing ME-clones too :P looks like it will be many tools like this

TheCrypto: Another goal of the CoEd project is to make a standard for this. So all the clients can talk to one another.

[tav] Well, many of these projects have been around for a long while now... e.g. leo, chalks, mollaborate, coed, 423 (?), etc. ;p but, moonedit has really helped put the fire under everyone's arse so to speak, as mattis put it ;p

tom: I heard about "mobedit" plans... hehe.. the funny thing is: I was never thinking I'll be doing some text editors.. I prefer computer graphics / games :P (of course this is like a game a little)

[tav] tom: this and gaming are *very* related ;p it's all disco workers baby!

TheCrypto: tav, the problem with a number of those projects is that they have stalled.

[tav] TheCrypto: *nod* and it's been good to see ME bring about some action again.

TheCrypto: The only ones still developing are ME, SubEthaEdit, and CoEd at the moment. At least that I see.

tom: oh, how do you know that ? :P maybe some "psycho" (Gates is his name, jk) is doing the killer-app in his basement, and laughs about our little crappy efforts / software

[tav] TheCrypto: right, what tom said ;p

[James] CoEd is making a standar for this? I mean, how can they make a standar on their own?

[tav] Problem is that you can't really make a *standard* for this. well, you can certainly try, but the applications are much broader than just simple text editing. Right, what TheCrypto said -- more of a network standard than an application standard.

TheCrypto: Standardize how the motions are sent, any sort of state information needs to be sent, then possibly, how to interpret that

Tom: sure that might be a good idea to put it that way, but the problem is in standarized interpretation, in ME one feature can change interpretation of motions much

[James]Well, standars come to life by grouping people who are doing the same thing, and deciding toghether a small starting point for standarization. It can be done I think.

[tav] well, the latter should be upto individual applications perhaps?

TheCrypto: The problem with that would be that if I'm using CoEd and you are using MoonEdit we could end up with different documention.

An Idea I just had was having an interpretation header. So when you make a connection, you just tell each other what interpretations you speak. You both calculate the best one you both understand and go with that.

Tom: James have right. But I think the way to go is: first do the app, than talk together and make a standard.

[James] Sure Tom, first is making something usable, then comes the standar. There are too many standar out there that nobody has never though about implementing, because they were too complex or too bogus, or just plain unuseful. First came the app, then the standards that brought interoperability

[tav] CORBA... SOAP... ;p

Tom: Maybe let's think about an HTML-like standard.. It seem to work for years, and even some interpretations of HTML extensions varies over some browsers, but it's not a big problem..

[tav] But, the problem wasn't for a lack of a standard... that's just the usual vendors not liking the standard totally and trying to leverage their advantage... yeah but you can't change people like this

[tav] No need to try to. Standards aren't an absolute truth, they are more "Recommendations", as say the W3C calls theirs. But, the Recommendation being there, gives those that want to work together, a chance to do so.

TheCrypto: Or too complex, SGML.


 * shudder*

[tav] Take something simple like xml-rpc for example... it's just a one-page standard, and not perfectly written at that. But... it has succeeded tremendously well.

tom: Multi-person real-time software standard: 1. use TCP/IPv6 or maybe UDP/IPv4 ?

[tav]

1. does this really have to be decided up front?

- it can vary from application to application. sometimes you want real-time, but you also want to be able to handle a streaming connection? sure

- sometimes you don't want the overhead of tcp. sometimes, you might do. alternatively, you might even contemplate using something like airhook.

^ airhook btw, is pretty similar to tcp but handles network congestions much better. and can be implemented on top of udp

TheCrypto: The standard is in the future. But it's something to think about.

-urgen- Standards hosting,, isn't that part of why these coSpace editors are being created in the first place? The need for a way to arrive at standards more quickly. <-- also suggesting another level to standards and the success of them by rating durability of the structure proposed.

[tav] urgen hehe. nice point =) less committee-driven, and more ... ;p

-urgen- As in the xml-rpc hitting that invisible needed slot. There are wide open horizons available, always more around the corner. No need to get bogged down in individual ownership models.

[tav] *nod* i don't think there's an individual ownership model being proposed here. just people expressing their desire to have open protocols so that they can work together instead of duplicating each others' works.

[tav] Right now, i see TheCrypto/tom/myself/ who are working in this field and trying to see if we could work together more effectively than being lone rangers so to speak

Tom: maybe there is some standard but we don't know about it ? :P what is BEEP ?

-urgen- yes, that's kind of what I meant by wide open.. it's there because humans do it already, it just needs to be expressed.

TheCrypto: BEEP is a standard for Peer 2 Peer software using a pseudo XML structure

[tav] lol. maybe so. rofl. /me goes updates pyBeep ;p

TheCrypto: You do pyBeep? What SubEthaEdit sends is almost like BEEP

[tav] No, but I know the guy who did.

Tom: Do you know about TendaX ? www.tendax.net they have some patents and no public available app

[tav] Tom: no, what's that?

[tav] nice

TheCrypto: I've looked at that patent, not the greatest in the world

Tom: ok, it looks like typical academic effort for me: millions of PDFs, movies, discussions, patents, but no app available to download (or I missed something)

[tav] hmz, they have no code?

TheCrypto: And people wonder why I like implementing things, because no one else does!

Tom: they have some movies from some working app.. but why not allow to download / buy it? (or maybe they are if you contact them or something)

A+ ..soon nice ting :)

ma: :)

ma: T: geduzt, geduscht und ausgebuht? T is the serveradmin, he just took a long shower.

bye

T: huhu *g not all the time, im not a fish, just waiting for pizza how is your skin, not too soft (after few hours pouring water on it :) ) ? jk
 * g

[tav] gah, they are pulling me offline again. sorry lads, gotto go.

[tav] But, been nice seeing everyone again, and hope that we can get together and do some funky things in the future =)

tom: ok, bye, sure, who knows :>

[tav] Will this be posted somewhere? Cool. Ciao!

tom: I guess, on ting4 www probably..ok, cya

ma: ting5 thursday 21:00 UTC, ok? Thos page will be copied to ting-wiki tomorrow evening (if T has the time).mom creating link now http://c.h23.org/t/ting4.php

[James] yep, very cool. Is it true that I dont have much time now, but I would like to see something being built around here. Right now Tom does all the work. So I feel there is no way I can collaborate to build a fun/useful aplication.

I have the feeling that there are lots of interesting ideas floating round on the air right now around ME and collaborative text edition, but Im just watching not playing. hummmmmmmm.

thanks everybody. It was fun.

Tom: I think I'll be going too, interesting chat.. yup thanks mattis for your organisational skills, and gathering people... James, I still have your translation, will be included of course in ME release someday..

yeah.. oh, hmm.. maybe plugin interface will make you happy or something like that...

Oh, Im not asking for opensource it in any way, thats such a personal decision, I wont push you or even ask about too much. I just.. hummm err.

yeah, you know. As I said I may not have a ton of free time, but when you want to find time, you actually do find time for doing things. (tings?) hehe

ma: Take time for tings. (Tings are one ting, things an other)

you just wan't to put your 2c (or more) into all this... yup.. yeah.. what are you doing (if I may ask), working at some company? oh

Im studing, and this is my final year or a system administration course. I will end up in less than a month actually, so I have some proyects to handle in, a couple presentation to the class and the final tests...

I am finishing studies too, my problem now is getting self-reliable I guess (I still live with parents), so you know... making some money wouldn't hurt :> and I have many ideas about projects / what to do.. of course no time for everything..

yep, it happens. getting self-reliable isnt easy. at least where I live. I supousse it is never easy no matter where you live.

here too, Poland is not the richest country, but even in a rich country is not much easier probably..

Im planning to go to Ireland after I finish my course. There is a great technology and economic boom there. Lots of jobs.

I would just be happy to work for myself.

The problem here is that if you are young then nobody os going to hire you for long period of time. They just want you for 3 or 6 months. and there is no way a bank will allow you to have a credit for a house. Also wages for young people are very low.

A house here is soooo expensive. yeah, decent house/apartment at least 50000$ here (maybe 30000-40000$ for some one-person appartments)

oh. There are some credits from UE for young companies etc..

well, I would say thats much cheaper than here! let say about a 3 dorms house, with just 1 bathroom and between 90 and 110 m2 (a flat, not house) in a normal place of the city, here would be easily 200,000 E

yep.people here buy their houses in period of 30 years... basically, most families dont own a house, they have a credit and pay for it every month.

he, actually mine doubles that price, and it is just 90m2 4small dorms... oh 200'000 E sucks, who get all that money ? city ? house builders ? what if you build a house by yourself ?

it is a weirad thing, everybody knows it actually doesnt "value" that much. But there are people who invest money in houses, so all the prices go up. Im talking that they have been growing at rates like 8% or even 14% a year!! so there are lots of people making money from buying/selling houses.

I guess a piece of land (what is it called, a field?) is not very cheap too? right, land in a city is just non-existant. You only can buy an empty land in small viallges or very far away from big cities, like a 40 minutes drive (traffic jam included, wich is very important in the in/out of cities here) :(

sure, that's pretty common..

ma: who get's all the money? The banks do, and the people behind. They push the buttons. eTerra.

banks? financial "industry" ? yeah, I heard they have a big money just by transferring money.. hmm.. a one guy on MoonEdit was saying something about "foreign affairs" <- you basically playing with money/currencies and making big many out of it (of course if you are smart / know the market etc..)

ma: last summer here in Venice there was the boat of one of the Bill Gates companions on the riva sciavoni, where the big ships are. It had two helicopters. One on the front and one in the rear.

tom: gee, rich bastard :) maybe he owns that "double-click" patent (jk)

T: cu all

Im going to patent the "blinking-cursor" technique. xD

tom: No.. patent "blink-cursor at constant rate" to be more annoying.. so every app will have blinking cursors, but irregular that way :D MoonEdit is 1/3 + 2/3 so safe :>lol that could be so funny

tom: ok that was fun, I'll be going...

me too. When is ting 5?

ma: http://c.h23.org/t/ting4.php is the export already. We have to enter command "svsave" and it's saved. :)

yeah, the other day I was parsing the log files and it wasnt working, until I discovered "svsave" I was wondering if there is a way to automate taht. Like launching the server and setting that o a given value.

tom: maybe "svsavetxt" ? anyway "svsave" should be automatically send, when you save file locally.

ma: ends, Ijust ried, secind half is missing. it is too long somehow.

yeah. missing.. strange.. but changes of upper half don't get saved too

tom: ok cya.. bye

James: Im leaving too. see you guys on next ting! bye.

ma: ciao

Bye