TingWiki/ting3

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Who showed up: James, esuji, sylvie, urgen, mattis

ting4 is on Sunday 20th feb, 18:00 GMT (19:00 CET)

script of ting3, on tuesday 15th of Feb 2005, 20.00 GMT

(mattis -) The page is called "ting3_talk now", not "chat" anymore. I renamed them to talk, as it is talk and the corresponding page on s23/ting-wiki is called talk too. There is "discussion" as a third name on the wiki for the talk part of every page (mediawiki has talk pages to every page), it's still a bit confusing. I haven't invited much as I did for the first two tings, might stay calm tonight :)

(sylvie -) nobody has added his/her name, so when you arrive on the wiki page of ting3 it's like nobody comes.

(sylvie -) no subject for this ting session ?

(mattis -) What could be one? The technical things are somehow on the run. It's a question of steam-pressure if Jamy Watt's engine'll start to move. We have to make this steam-pressure. Apply moon-edit. Even the coolest people are exited about it. I have not senn one yet, who'snot excited about it.

(sylvie -) I think I understand what you mean

(mattis -) What could be other applications of moon-edit? We have:
 * tings, online real-time meetings to talk, be faster, organize.
 * teaching/learning, e.a. languages (in combination with VoIP)

(sylvie -) uses is one thing - but what about users? :)

(mattis -) What basically fascinates me so much about it is that it creates rythmn. It makes people do someting together at the same time and it makes them appoint for a next time to come together, that is rythmn.

(sylvie -) the difficulty is exactly where the beauty is of what you say: be present at the same time and be able to produce something with others, each one seeing what he/she can do  and so positioning him/herself in  the process  of production. Be present seems difficult :)

(mattis -) It takes keeping the groove. Get people move, make them tap their fingers, make them dance. Repeating the thing, in the right tempo, upbeat, but commodo. When do we have our next ting by the way, just not to forget about the m o s t important question of all :) Lion asked about it already. We should in any case have one ting on a convenient hour on weekends once a week.

(James -) Considering the asistance on last session, I think last time's day and hour seems much more confortable for people than thi one. (we are after all just 3 at 20.46 gtm)

(sylvie -) but also last time a kind of effervescence? was around like a launch of event but after "j'y pense et puis j'oublie" think and forget at the same time :)

(James -) hummmm. Thats why there is ting_document. We are supossed to save any interesting idea there. (right)

(sylvie -) I talk about people and meeting :) maybe the idea of a fixed hour meeting in the week would be  more  efficient

(James -) Actually, Im trying to do something with ME: I thought about automatically publish a archieve on Apache. The thing is, ME has a special syntax in its .me files. I thought about coding a python script that would crop off the un-needed bytes and place the rest in the Apache publish folder. And make that script run at regular intervals. (cron) Any suggestoins about this?

(sylvie -) I don't understand what this is for ?

(James -) It will make it possible to have a web on the Internet that can be changed at any time by a number of persons at the same time.

(esuji -) james, have you seen tav's work on that ? http://esp:hmz@dev.espnow.com/ ? it even autoprocesses ReST also on the moonedit website the format is documented. a web interface to actualize what's on moon edit ? to have two way to use moon edit: 1-multi-users : production editing tool : backend 2-diffusion (web) : visualisation of the production : frontend sylvie, it would be interesting to integrate it with a wiki too.. i've spent a few seconds considering how to reconcile live editing with revision based systems such as SVN/CVS or Wikis... and it sounds hard and/or ugly

(mattis -) ting-flashmob, yeah!

(urgen -) scroll-back history is nice, adding branching would allow revision. each branch would become a document via namechange.1.3 etc

(mattis -) (use f6 and f8 for the fine tuning)

(esuji -) we experienced some ugly desynchs/netsplits with moonedit when using the history feature... maybe thats fixed in the new standalone server?

(mattis -) The most likely hour to get working together at least European and American folks would be on Sundays, not too early for the us not too late for eu. 18:00 GMT, is that good? I don't know if Tom uses a wiki yet for bugs and hints but he desperately should.

(urgen -) Tom is the writer of moonedit?

(mattis -) yep, nice young polish guy.

(esuji -) should opensource this thing. bastard.

(mattis -) He's mostly on sphere.pl which is quite a scrapyard already, great! (they have been my favorite since I was 6 - and until I discovered the Internet ;)

(urgen -) Is cut and paste the only import feature currently?

(mattis -) never used anything els, never looked after other ways, honestly.

(urgen -) It would also be nice to paste a graphic.

(mattis -) It would be nice to have a section: like from here > < to here. And you commonly during the work process say when to save it as the wiki page, zack! K, admin (for now - freenet ;), we are ready, save it to the wiki. scripts, enter command "svsave" does something like that to s23-wiki already, they made it up last time. (urgen -) OK, so, with the branch idea, then this format (moonedit) coupled in a wiki, becomes something of a wikipedia for defining terminology in a live setting. That would also record changes and branches of thought that could become new threads for thought along the way. Wikipedia is currently linear, this would be the glue that allows simultaneous but separate definitions. Wikipedia is degrading into political wars.

(mattis -) wikipedia will be "upgrading" into MPOV (multiple point of view) - the high art of wikilandia. Moon-edit was used to write a wikinews article, Erik seems to like it.

(urgen -) The publish blocks idea is very good. Or, execute blocks, too

(mattis -) It seems to me as if what is wiki now is gonna be what is "document" here (+ moon-edit sucking up irc like a black hole). The only place you will not be permanent (thus "private") will be in a skype conference call ;) I like that.

(urgen -) That sort of brings up a related topic, multiple moonedit servers need a way to merge files.

(mattis -) If somebody would at least fake to reprogram moon-edit - would that impress Tom?

(urgen -) As in copying is flattery?

(mattis -) I'm a user, moon-edit and skype are not opensource and I hate it, it breaks it all down, they are two lame donkeys, but they are donkeys, they (...) work. They are kinda "the samallest evil" (thanks to Tom and the skype-folks).

(urgen -) I wouldn't mind trying to figure out a way to support those kinds of models within an open economy.

(mattis -) zcool. Offer something better, zcool. Let's do that.

(urgen -)It is slowly being done, this is state of the art.

(mattis -) even better. where?

(urgen -) I meant *here* with these ideas being shared. People are slowly gaining a way to express their experiences a few steps after they have them. It takes 'hands on' first.

(mattis -) what's the wiki for it? I know so many ;)

(urgen -) I haven't seen anything centralized still, just a lot of isolated efforts all stumbling along.

(mattis -) K, just like me.

(urgen -) That's why I said this was state of the art. We get bogged down on the process for requests side of things. That is not yet coordinated to *efficiency* The Master Ticket Tracker. Back a bit there was a mention that a different format than the requests moonedit page is needed. This format doesn't really have good tracker capacity.

(mattis -) Me no good on the technical side, know?

(urgen -) I haven't seen a good multi-discipline engine either. A way for dreamers and builders to play nicely.

(mattis -) mediawiki with oddmuse's multilingual features but elaborated (on edit-mode e.a.). As you are talking about dreams. maybe we  need  a kind of webplateforme to  offer  a real muli-discipline for a meta engine

(mattis -) I try to make this one.

(sylvie -) it needs various persons from various disciplines and competences and different servers and technologies working through interoperability we need diversity and "gateways" to create ways for circulation and transformation  of data from  place to  place the web is the most accessible place for people having  a connection for the different things that we can share with others in a distant relation

°    |   ((O)) >--|--<   ] [      .     .     .     |   ((O)) >--|--<   ] [

(mattis -) synapis, got it, agree.

(sylvie -) synapis ? synapses fr :)

(mattis -) Brain. neurons connect to neurons via a synapsis (maybe wrong english, latin)

So, seems like there a couple strategies for using moonedit, by clumping everything any one person says in the same place or playing leapfrog to simulate a time progressive conversation.

(mattis -) Disciplined wiki way for thread-mode text gives the best read -and analysability for later readers. To be preferred.

but later readers, here, can just play the movie and watch it evolve.

(mattis -) they want to understand right waway. You can always ..., but you don't. Mostly I don't feel like reworking all that ... :) So always write for the reader, and the reader only.

(sylvie -) but reader is also the writer ;) each reader re-write  what 's  wrote that's why wiki is  so  nice there  is no frontier between  read/write

(mattis -) there hasn't ever been a frontier. It's all just a trick of the book-market to sell more bullshit. ;)

(sylvie -) ok but in a wiki each person can  perceive  when a reader takes  the writer  position, with a book no  feedback about  this change" of  position ;)

(mattis -) *sigh*, right.

(sylvie -) with ITC all becomes a source of  information : matter for  creation ... data are plastic material to develop new objects new forms we cannot do before the interactions between humans and machines and before interactions through the network between  digital reality and analogic  reality

(mattis -) The basic and essential tools are in our hands already. Monkeys in front of an open tool-box we are.

(sylvie -) yep OK I think I 'm  quiet tired  :) so  bye  and see you soon for a new  ting  or  an  another meeting on ME

(mattis -) t i n g 4 on S u n d a y 20th feb, 18:00 GMT (19:00 CET)

(later, thinking:) Three steps. Two during the ting, one after. During the ting: talk and document. Afterwards wiki-pages not only representing the two live phases, but also a third one condensing them must be created. ting-digest? Even a forth level "ting-digest/talk" might come off. Good. Good ting (as usual - :)

[fr]Réfléchir/Pensées : 3 étapes. Deux durant la ting, une après. Durant la ting : parler et documenter. Après les pages wiki ne représenent pas seulement les deux phases live, mais aussi une troisième condensant ce qui doit etre créé. Un résumé du ting ? Meme un quatrieme niveau du type "ting-résumé/convesation" pourrait surgir. Bien. Bonne ting (comme d'habitude - :)